Comment by Tima on July 5, 2011 at 8:24pm

I completely  agree with you Jeff !!!!

Comment by Nathan Giffin Vertical Artisans on July 6, 2011 at 8:01am

VertiFaux should retail around $19 or $20 Dollars in the US.  If you don't have it in your area send me an email...I will try to source a dealer for you.  Bulk purchases skid or more reduces the price by several dollars.

 

Let me way in on this a bit....as far as pricing goes...

 

If I am doing a fire place and I have a total of 20 bags of carving mix,  that's around $400 dollars but lets say it $500.   If I can sculpt a piece that looks ( Has the perceived value of something absolutely fantastic that cannot be replicated buy my competitors) and feels good to the client,  I may charge $4000 to $5000 for the whole fire place.

Lets say they have a really good design and the my competitor is charging $5,200 for what they are doing.   They are  trying to offer some really good "upgrades" but when I came along I dropped the bomb and took the job for $500 more.  I say this because I have done it many times.

 

Now the $500 more than my competitors for even more upgrades ( impressive and visually stunning) was YOU GUESSED IT!!! my mix cost.   Could I have done the project for less and still offered the client the exact same thing.  SURE. But if they were willing to spend it I am will to except it for my craft.  This "Artist Factor" is what is called what the market will bear.   If the market is tight then the market will not bear as much.   However if the market is good then it will and now lets examine that $100 dollar bag mix price.... that would mean you could (not practical but possible) spend 100 dollars on a bag making it $2000 dollars for your carving.   Out of a $5500 dollar project.   An exaggeration of course but there are no 100 dollar mixes out there.   So, is 25, 30, even 35 really ridiculous for a custom mix.  Perhaps.  That's why we have Tru-Pac and other low cost mixes... 

For small projects you can't beat the ease and speed these bags offer compared to hauling all the components around and chicken souping your own mix...I've done that for years and that is a fact.

Best Regards to all who do this...the bag mixes are out there if guys want them...most are good...but I understand both side of this coin all to well.

 

As far as clients getting robbed .... I don't agree with this point....Clients pay for what they want.  We are sculpting pieces of art work and therefore the value is in the eye of the beholder.   If an artist is too high then he is forced to lower his price or enjoy the fruit of no sales.   If he is busy then his prices go up to maximize his profits.    This takes place in the unions as well only a bit different.  The "artist" gets his wage whether he is the best at it or not.  The shop may charge 90 dollars a man hour and then add profit.    But even in this field I think most shops will deem this a custom project and really jack up the price.    If they have the artists to back up that play.  At least that's how things are done here in Chicago.   And I might add ours city's sterling character and reputation for good ethics and morals in the political arena:)

Comment by John Eddington on July 6, 2011 at 11:02am

I think I have some thoughts on this as well...

We have several people that simply want some simple cake recipe mixes to follow to get started.  The mix design must be inexpensive to suit the needs of those that want to work at home and learn/perfect what they are doing before they approach a customer with a project idea.

I think Jeff's idea will suit this need quite well.  If the argument for a bagged mix is for convenience sake, then that that be the argument.   It should be like buying concrete...we all know (should know) what we are getting when we buy a bag of concrete mix at Lowes...Sure, I can also go buy some gravel and some sand and a sack of portland, but for my experimental sake, I think I will buy a few bags...for convenience. 

I thought the mix designs were created for a convenience for the artist...in this case I say great.  If I'm doing a huge job then I'll pass this onto the customer and cut somewhat into my own  profit margin.  I have to way that profit against how long it will take me to make this mix from scratch.  If it cuts into my profit too much I will of course seek a less expensive mix design that works great or make my own from scratch.

I think the first person that says..."this is what my mix is (A+ B +C) please feel free to make your own. Or I can sell it to you prebagged (for convenience) and you will simply pass this cost onto your customer.  This to me (my opinion of course) is the person who will win at this game.  In this case...there is no "secret mix" and it is being sold for a market for profit for the sole reason of being a "convenience."  Without forcoming of design, then the mixes are still being sold for their "special unique properties."  I understand marketing and I also understand this perspective as well.  We all need to make our living whether it be by selling, working, distributing or whatever. 

Kind Regards,

John Eddington

Comment by Nathan Giffin Vertical Artisans on July 6, 2011 at 3:34pm

Well put John....the brass tax is that there are several things to consider when you are making your own mix vs. just buying a bag mix.

Performance = proper sands, cements, and other components at the right percentages.

In my own mix I have tinkered with the design over the last 8 years.  There are roughly 8 to 10 components and it performs exactly the way it is supposed to for a interior mix design.

 

I can not control the final retail price, but if I were to list all the components and the ratios, one could buy all the components but you would have to make larger orders because most manufactures don't sell one-zee two-zee types.  If you know what I mean.  Will you save money, probably, if you buy enough and make enough.  

 

Here are some more things to consider when you are Making your own mix.

Are you gonna bag it?  Where are you going to store it?

Will you just make it on the job site?  Who is going to actually do all the mixing and at there proper ratios if you are on the job site?   If that is you  then that is a lot of monkey'in around while you could have been doing something else more productive... Where are you going to keep all the raw materials when your done?  Will you transport them back to the warehouse loose?   I

 can go on and on simply because I did this for years.  When I "converted" to a bag mix, my life became a whole lot easier and more productive.  It cleaned up the job site and I spent less time in clean up from the mess of making it myself.

Now it just open the bags and mix....throw out the empties and push on.

 

Now I must say if the job is a lot bigger then it is well worth the knowledge to mix your own or pull from a truck.    But even having saying that I have done projects where I have gone through 20 pallets of mix and have still done just fine on pricing.

Location is another factor....if it is difficult to do all the self mixing  then a bag is more convenient.

Just some more food for thought.  

 

I encourage all of you who are in this trade to do whatever it takes to make this craft a reality and a success.  If that means working out of a bag ...so be it....if it mean working from scratch that all is well with that route as well.

 

Comment by John Eddington on July 6, 2011 at 6:30pm

Quoting Nathan here...

"Here are some more things to consider when you are Making your own mix.

Are you gonna bag it?  Where are you going to store it?

Will you just make it on the job site?  Who is going to actually do all the mixing and at there proper ratios if you are on the job site?   If that is you  then that is a lot of monkey'in around while you could have been doing something else more productive... Where are you going to keep all the raw materials when your done?  Will you transport them back to the warehouse loose?   I

 can go on and on simply because I did this for years.  When I "converted" to a bag mix, my life became a whole lot easier and more productive.  It cleaned up the job site and I spent less time in clean up from the mess of making it myself.

Now it just open the bags and mix....throw out the empties and push on."

 

I think those are all great points...especially keeping the jobsite cleaner.

Comment by jeff kirt/ kirtbag Carving mix on July 6, 2011 at 6:38pm

If you have major surgery, your gonna come out with some scars.They will heal and everything will be back to normal.

Comment by John Eddington on July 6, 2011 at 6:46pm

Hey Jeff,

If you comment was in regards to messing up the yard and it getting back to normal, I see your point.  I try to make my mixes small in my garage then carry them dry already mixed to the yard for water.  I'm not sure what I'd do if I were going to mix my own for a large job (I will probably never do a large job).  I think I would have to pre-mix in bulk, then bag it or bucket it to take with me.  I don't like the idea of having a large pile of sand and gravel in my driveway...although I'm cosidering it :-)

Comment by jeff kirt/ kirtbag Carving mix on July 6, 2011 at 7:04pm

Ya its a mess forsure. The kids love it also. You know, i dont know what to say. It all just depends on the job, thats it. We can make up scenarios for every instance you may incur, but it all boils down to the job. Nathans right, the bag mixes are nice because of the less mess. But if you still want to mix your own, your gonna have bags of ingredients there anyway, i dont know. Its just tireing. Everyone can do whatever they want, its not going to affect me if you leave a sand pile on your job when your done. You can do want you want. The thing is, if you mix your own, kinda have a mess, you can afford to spend an extra day there cleaning up cuz you saved so much money on the mix. WHATEVER. ughhh. Everyone just do what you want according to the job, thats it.

Comment by John Eddington on July 6, 2011 at 7:17pm

Or you can just make your kids clean it up ;-)

Comment by scott dobert on July 6, 2011 at 8:13pm

hello guys !! been pretty busy for a while here and im just readin through what ive missed. i would like to chime in on this subject as i have been through this subject in my head since i have started this awsome art! so here it goes..... one thing nathan said about the value of your work i definietly agree with is that the price of a piece of art even functional art( and make no mistakes what we do is make art) has very very little to do with what or even the value of what we use to make it with. for example, i make many of my furniture and decor items out of reclaimed wood. in many cases it has been reclaimed from a construction job with no real signifagance in wich it can add value to my items. at the same time i can take this once piece of garbage and carve,cut,sand,stain,finish and just plain work it into an object that most people find worth my asking price to pay for, even in this market! my point being as an artist YOU add the REAL value to your sack o mud weather it be home made or the best bag o mix money can buy! in the end its what WE do to it that makes it valuable. how valuable is determind and limited only to your imagination and ingienuitey and of course your clients pocket. now with that said i also want to add that as of right now i have not done a vertical stone carving job in or at another persons home or property, however i have built several terrarium stands and art work using vertical rock carving on them and then selling them in my store and a good freind of mines pet store and have sold several. the reason i state this is that i have only tried trupak once and i really liked it and the only other bag mix i have had the chance of working very little with was vertifaux w nathan at a hands on in naples and this too seemed to be a very nice mix!! but here i am with very few distributers of carving mud very close(soon to be resolved with brian bobiks new store comin soon in naples!)i of course resorted to whippin up my own homemade brew with home depot  materials. with lots of trial and error i have come up with a mud that i enjoy using for my small projects and practise boards. is it perfect? no is it silky smooth and creamy? not as much as id like it to be does it out perform bagged mixes? hell no! does it carve good? not bad! does it texture well? pretty dam good i think! does it stick? yup i have dun two(2)inches upside down with very few probs some fell so what i picked it back up and slung it back up there! and it stayed! yay! does it color well? i think so! does it crack? only on a crappy substrate!!  and so far when all is done and said the customer loved it and bought it! and its cheap to make. will i use it on a large job?......... nope i will absolutely use a bagged mix! why you ask if you like your mix and its cheap and it works? the best answer i can give you is for me! it will give me piece of mind that it will perform concistantly in the enviorment it was designd for, it will shorten my hours or man hours wich we all know eat up profit,and i will be confident that what i told the customer they were getting is what they are getting after all all customers feel good knowing that there contractor is not cutting corners in there mind wich makes them freindly and at ease wich helps make me freindly and at ease so i can do my best work! will i keep using my mix? absolutley! do i like bagged mixes? hell yeah!! and now im dun and i look at all of our comments and wish we all had spent this time posting awsome pics of beautiful projects both personal and proffesional with both our home brews and bagged mixes and just stand at awe of what we can all create!!! happy carvin!!

Comment

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• Next ›
• Page