Comment by jared oshanski on June 12, 2012 at 6:40pm

Hey Mike, just noticed this ceiling looks like its carved. I'm wondering if the walls are tied into gfrc panels or a sculpted ceiling. if it is carved, do you have any pointers for doing large stretches of ceiling. This is something that has been a I've really struggled with on a past job. 

Comment by jared oshanski on June 12, 2012 at 6:46pm

p.s. sorry about the last sentence. hope you can crack the code on that grammar lol. 

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 10:22am

The ceiling is shot the same as the walls. This particular ceiling was shot an average of 3"-4" with 1 small fallout in the corner from trying to bump something out too far. Fireclay is a must here, and in situations where you need to be heavier in the clay I suggest using a surface curing agent.

Comment by Brian Bobik on June 13, 2012 at 7:33pm

Really? 3"-4" ceiling with portland, sand and fireclay??? Please elaborate on the 'surface curing agent'. I am quasi-planning on turning an outdoor lanai into an oasis with a rock formation, water slide, etc. Currently, I'm thinking 2 shovels sand to one Portland. How much fireclay? Heavier on the fireclay, stickier the mix? Is this the 'specially designed concrete mix' you mention on the site? If and when do you use fly ash? Morter sprayer? Appreciate it, bro.

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 9:43pm

The spa was done with the mortar sprayer. Its slow and ball busting but is nice over a plaster or shotcrete pump for quick cleanup and small applications. Its great on ceilings. The thickness I shot on the ceiling depended on the detail. You dont wantto do alot of pushing with your trowels. The more you mess with it in the wet  state increases the chance of it delaminating from the structure coat. So spray it, lightly trowel and shape then leave it alone till its firmed up for carving. Then I will cut the extra detail as opposed to more troweling of shapes on a regular wall. Try 3 sand 1 portland 1/2 to 1 clay. Since flyash is a bi-product it has sometimes become difficult to get. You dont need it with clay. Also if you are slick troweling your first coat then scratching it your not doing yourself any favors. Guys do it all the time and wonder why they cant get 3" to easily hang vertically. If I am not shooting it on then it is applied  by hand. and when I say by hand I dont mean a hawk and trowel. I know all the oldschoolers will disagree but as far as I'm concerned hawks are for stucco and are a joke for rockwork. I can throw it twice as thick and twice as fast with my gloved hands. The whole point of this being that the texture left from just throwing the initial coat or dragging my sloppy glove over it far exceeds the vertical or inverted holding surface. Pretty scratch coats are for holing VERY minimal amounts of material. REMEMBER when its in its wet state its not a bonding game its a gravity game so the rougher the surface the better. It should not be comfortable to run your hand across when its hard. Then when my carve coat is applied I can push and pull the mud all over theplace with a pooltrowel in each hand shaping the rock the way I want it. On a side note If there is anything protruding on my structure coat that could potentially trap air behind it I knock it off. Your wall should be slightly damp but not shiny wet before applying the carve coat. Preparation and execution are way more important than mix recipies. 90% of the rock I throw by hand is just sand and cement with a splash of lime. The carve coat is nothing more than a facade over the structure coat which has the steel in it and is the structural backbone to the entire thing.

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 10:00pm

This was structuraly shot with shotcrete with the carvecoat applied by hand. 3 sands 1.5 cement. It is a pump room and was finished seven years ago. Even with the brutal winters in the Addirondacks the texture coat remains perfect. Just sand and cement over a good base.

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 10:03pm

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 10:04pm

Comment by Mike Vernelson on June 13, 2012 at 10:06pm

Comment by jared oshanski on June 13, 2012 at 11:03pm

Thanks a bunch Mike! you more than answered my question. I guess its easy to be so forthcoming with information when youre working on 90% talent and 10% trade secrets. I think its like you said, you have to know when to stop trying and walk away until the material is ready to be worked with  on that type of surface. Ive spent a lot of wasted time on undersides because i didnt have the patience to walk away and come back later to carve rather than shape with the pool trowel. Thanks again. Having a hard time distinguishing which of these lose rocks around the boulder where carved and which where brought in. Fantastic work!

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